Moon Shot - The Next Step

First private sector mission concepts, potential revenue streams, what various companies and organizations are doing along these lines, <b>closely</b> related topics

Moderator: smccann

User avatar
joertexas
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:44 am
Location: San Antonio Texas

Update - Project Status

Post by joertexas » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:26 am

Okay, I've worked out some tentative mass and power budgets for the rovers. Finding the rock crawlers really solved a lot of engineering headaches, and the backhoe is beginning to take shape.

The solar panel array is next on the list for rough-in, and, in some especially good news, I have enlisted my friend Vanessa's help for the lander design. Her schedule doesn't permit her much free time, but she has graciously agreed to work on the design as her time permits.

So, the orbiter's rough design is complete, as is the design for the small rovers. The lander and backhoe designs are in progress, and the solar array is yet to be started.

The landing site depicted on the images I posted here is actually northeast of Hinshelwood, but it still seems to be a good place to land. I found another LROC image of the northeast rim of Hinshelwood, and it looks pretty good, too. Of course, the final landing site won't be selected until we have imagery in hand from our own orbiter.

Once the basic designs are all complete, then we can incorporate that into a business proposal for the mission.

JR

John Hunt
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:17 am

Post by John Hunt » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:02 pm

Wow, great progress. Does the mission have a name?

User avatar
joertexas
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:44 am
Location: San Antonio Texas

Post by joertexas » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:32 pm

[quote=""JohnHunt""]Wow, great progress. Does the mission have a name?[/quote]

No, that part of the plan falls on you and Logan :D

Seriously, I have no clue what to call it.

JR

John Hunt
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:17 am

Post by John Hunt » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:16 am

There is a similar discussion over at the forum at NASASpaceFlight.com I found it interesting that they are talking not just about assaying lunar water ice but also more broadly characterizing the subsurface

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... 52.10;wap2

There is one other way to characterize the subsurface that wouldn't require drilling: seismic survey. Deploy an array of geophones, then call in KelvinZero's air strike. The geophones in the oil and gas industry are called "jugs"; they have a little spike on the end; they're connected by a wire, and they pay someone, the "jug stomper" to plant the spike in the ground, and then stomp on the geophone. However, if you skipped the spikes, and just laid them on the lunar crater floor, it would work just fine. To deploy them, have a couple of mortar-like tubes on either side of the lander. An explosive charge would shoot out the wire and geophone array on each side. So you could deploy a hundred meter array, and probably still stay within your 60 kg limit. Even if the array was only 10 meters wide, it would still generate useful information. Then to generate the vibrations, either call in the air strike, or bring along a few grenades, and fling them a safe distance away.

John Hunt
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:17 am

Post by John Hunt » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:27 am

Joe mentioned earlier about the solar panel system being at 50kg.

The following article is titled: Solar-cell arrays in space to deliver 200 watts/kg.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_ ... ber=974836

If 90% of the solar panel system were solar panels then this would give 9,000 watts.

The Spirit and Opportunity rovers require about 100 watts each just to move, although I understand that they move more slowly than we'd probably want.

Also, what about thin mirrors located in sunlight on high points which direct sunlight to panels which are located in the crater. This could be a light weight way of beaming energy.

Also, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Exploration_Rover
the rovers' power supplies hovered between 300 watt-hours and 900 watt-hours per day
Joe, Why did you choose 331 kg for the total mass of the system. In a previous discussion Elon Musk indicated that he could deliver 1,000 kg to the lunar surface for $80 million.

User avatar
joertexas
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:44 am
Location: San Antonio Texas

Post by joertexas » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:10 pm

Joe mentioned earlier about the solar panel system being at 50kg. The following article is titled: Solar-cell arrays in space to deliver 200 watts/kg. If 90% of the solar panel system were solar panels then this would give 9,000 watts.

Standard solar panels produce about 50W/kg, according to the research I've done. If these new panels are available, I'll be delighted to use them.

The Spirit and Opportunity rovers require about 100 watts each just to move, although I understand that they move more slowly than we'd probably want.

The backhoe's energy budget is about 1kW at the moment. The heaters and hydraulic pumps will use the lion's share of that while the machine is digging.

Also, what about thin mirrors located in sunlight on high points which direct sunlight to panels which are located in the crater. This could be a light weight way of beaming energy.

I'm planning to use lithium ion battery packs to power the rovers. They're simple and rugged - and proven tech.

Joe, Why did you choose 331 kg for the total mass of the system. In a previous discussion Elon Musk indicated that he could deliver 1,000 kg to the lunar surface for $80 million.

According to Jaqar's orbit calculation software, the Falcon 9 can throw 1,973kg into a translunar injection orbit. After that, the mission Dv budget is 3.223 km/s, including braking into a low lunar orbit, landing and a fuel reserve. Now, I am using 100kg of cargo capacity to provide us a orbiter, but that still puts a little over 330 kg (current figure) on the surface.

Musk may have been contemplating a Falcon 9 Heavy mission. It certainly can put 1,000kg on the lunar surface (barely), and the price has drifted up to $95M for a launch.

JR
Last edited by joertexas on Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John Hunt
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:17 am

Post by John Hunt » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:05 pm

The backhoe's energy budget is about 1kW at the moment.
Where do U get info for such requirements. Did U get that from the Phoenix lander news?
Musk may have been contemplating a Falcon 9 Heavy mission. It certainly can put 1,000kg on the lunar surface (barely), and the price has drifted up to $95M for a launch.
Musk has gone on record saying that he would sell Falcon flights to any Google Lunar X-Prize contender "at cost". No idea what that might actually mean but it's a hopeful sign that maybe we could get an F9 for less than the stated price even if we can't accomplish the prospecting mission in time.

User avatar
joertexas
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:44 am
Location: San Antonio Texas

Post by joertexas » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:36 am

Where do U get info for such requirements. Did U get that from the Phoenix lander news?

No, I've been researching all sorts of space missions, and checking their numbers against information from manufacturers and other sources about the relevant equipment. I'm also a certified aircraft mechanic, so I know something of how these machines are put together.


Musk has gone on record saying that he would sell Falcon flights to any Google Lunar X-Prize contender "at cost". No idea what that might actually mean but it's a hopeful sign that maybe we could get an F9 for less than the stated price even if we can't accomplish the prospecting mission in time.

I sure plan to find out what he meant. The going rate for a Falcon 9 launch is $56M, and who knows what it will be when we're ready to fly. I'll take any discount I can get, and you can bet I'll ask. That's why this planning session is important - we need to get a viable plan hammered out and put into circulation.

JR

User avatar
moonus111
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:35 am
Location: http://colonize-the-moon.com

Post by moonus111 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:40 am

Okay, so this project appears to be quickly approaching the stage where my skills would be of service. I'm willing to help if we want to build a promotional website about the project.

Whatever we do though, we have to plaster permanent all over it, you know to show team pride!

User avatar
joertexas
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:44 am
Location: San Antonio Texas

Post by joertexas » Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:30 am

[quote=""moonus111""]Okay, so this project appears to be quickly approaching the stage where my skills would be of service. I'm willing to help if we want to build a promotional website about the project.

Whatever we do though, we have to plaster permanent all over it, you know to show team pride![/quote]

What would you need from the design team to make the promotional website? I have some basic 3-D renderings of the lander, the orbiter, and a parts breakdown of the backhoe. The solar panels trailer is still pending basic design layout.

If Rares is available, he does excellent work, and I'm sure he could make something good from my drawings.

The rock crawlers are featured on YouTube, and I plan to use a 1/10 scale version for the scouts, and a 1/5 version for the comms rover.

JR

Post Reply